Do you believe?/Spiritual threads merged

[Yokel]

What created the big bang then Jim?

[hermes2007]

The best answer I have seen is:
http://www.reason42.com/2006/06/06/what-created-the-big-bang/

Wiki has a great article on it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang
of which I understood about 30% 

[Monica Reyes]

So, who created gods then?

Man that's who through fear and control.

[Mike Hawkins]

Re. Darwins Theory

I have read many articles that cast doubt on his theories:

1. Towards the end of his life Darwin himself had serious doubts that his theory was correct.

2. There has been no scientific evidence to support Darwin in that the fossils found have not provided any evidence of any transitional life forms between what was and what is now (the so called "missing links")!

[hermes2007]

Mike,

Yokel likes to provoke (and I always rise to it) but I know you have sincere beliefs. But I trained originally as a Botanist (though I never went into as a career) and I'm afraid you are wrong and have been reading what sounds like propoganda. Darwin did not doubt his theory of natural selection but he had awful problems explaining how it worked until genetics was re-discovered. Read a book like Richard Dawkin's The Blind Watchmaker, and to me at least, it all makes sense. They had a brilliant series on BBC recently on Darwin - a fascinating man. I think you would be hard-pushed to find any reputable biologist who thought that Natural Selection wasn't at the least pointing in the right direction. As I said to my friend who does believe in Creationism, that isn't a theory, but a Hope.

[Mike Hawkins]

Hermes,

Richard Dawkins is a total aetheist by his own admission. In Westbury library there is a book "Is God Past His Sell By Date", sorry I cannot remember the author, who tears Dawkins to shred. It is worth reading. It also explains the weaknesses to Darwins Theory in relation to the failure of geological evidence to support his views. It also destroys the Dawkins "evidence of natural process" using genetic evidence.

However, I do respect your views even if I cannot accept them myself.

[Soup]

My problem with Christianity is the fact that it has been used over centuries to manipulate the general population. Essentially, what we view as the Bible today, has been tyranslated, had bits chopped out, bits put in, bits re-written, and then is regurgitated to us by a Vicar or similar who will no doubt put their own interpretation into it - so even if I believed what the true Bible said was true, I wouldn't listen to a thing I was fed in church as I don't have enough faith in mankind not to use it as a tool of manipulation. More than that though, for me I cannot believe God sits up there on a cloud looking down on us, as Christianity would dictate. Instead I believe that we are all god, and we're all just worshipping existence itself, rather than an almighty conscious creator. Just my thoughts....I've learned not to debate this too much as everyone keeps religion in their own way.

[maxi]

I'm not a deeply religious person, but I read a good story and wondered how others would take it. Forgive my ignorance if this is a well known story, but I'd not heard it before:

A man went to a barbershop to have his haircut and his beard trimmed.

As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation.
They talked about so many things and various subjects. When they
eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said:
"I don't believe that God exists."

"Why do you say that?" asked the customer. "Well, you just have to go out
in the street to realize that, God doesn't exist. Tell me; if God exists,
would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children?

If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a
loving God who would allow all of these things."

The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't
want to start an argument. The barber finished his job and the customer left
the shop.

Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long,
stringy, dirty hair and untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt. The
customer turned back and entered the barbershop again and he said to the
barber:

"You know what? Barbers do not exist."

"How can you say that?" asked the surprised barber. "I am here, and I am a
barber. And I just worked on you!"

"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did,
there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like
that man outside."

"Ah, but barbers DO exist! That's what happens when people do not come to
me."

"Exactly!" affirmed the customer. "That's the point! God, too, DOES exist!
That's what happens when people do not go to Him and don't look to Him for
help.

That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

[Soup]

Sorry Maxi - that doesn't work for me! It implies if you believe / approach 'God' all will be well...

[Mike Hawkins]

My problem with Christianity is the fact that it has been used over centuries to manipulate the general population. Essentially, what we view as the Bible today, has been tyranslated, had bits chopped out, bits put in, bits re-written, and then is regurgitated to us by a Vicar or similar who will no doubt put their own interpretation into it - so even if I believed what the true Bible said was true, I wouldn't listen to a thing I was fed in church as I don't have enough faith in mankind not to use it as a tool of manipulation. More than that though, for me I cannot believe God sits up there on a cloud looking down on us, as Christianity would dictate. Instead I believe that we are all god, and we're all just worshipping existence itself, rather than an almighty conscious creator. Just my thoughts....I've learned not to debate this too much as everyone keeps religion in their own way.

I see your point on this, and remember reading an article that asked the question, "If Jesus returned today would he recognise Christianity?" The answer was "NO".

The problem I believe, is that "Christian" churches have, over the centuries, turned away from what Jesus taught, have become too secular, i.e. a part of the system of Government, and have tried to adapt to modern thinking and present moral behaviour instead of concentrating on presenting the real message.

[thatmanfez]

Sorry to butt into an ongoing discussion, but I'd like to put my ideas into the mix... I've studied religions (and have an A level in Psychology), and have come to understand the reason for their existence. Organized religions in any form can be, and often are a force for good. Gods are created to answer four fundamental questions:

1.   Why am I here?
2.   Who will support me?
3.   What should I do now?
4.   Am I alone?

1000 years before the current crop of gods existed, many people believed in the gods of nature (fire, water, animals, plants, sex etc) because that was what was important to them at the time (staying alive, heat and stuff). Once most of the population lived in houses and had jobs, those gods stopped being important, so new gods were born (about 2000 years ago depending on your geographic location). The new gods were gods of social structure – The “thou shalt not commit adultery” gods… And they have done a very good job for a long time (apart from all the world wars and the crusades and suicide bombers and stuff)… but we are moving into a new era. IMHO we are on the cusp of many religions dying out (especially Christianity which will fall victim to its own option to let its followers think for themselves). In their wake I think we will see a general, non descript spirituality for the needy, and atheism for the enlightened.

I honestly believe that we, as a species, are moving away from the need to trust in an unobserved daddy, who will make it all alright, and give us a nice place to go when our bodies wear our… We aren’t all there yet so I choose my words carefully and try not to be judgemental, but am confident that we will all (maybe not all those currently living, but surely all of a future generation will) eventually achieve enlightenment/release.

Fez

[Sadman]

Thatmanfez,
I agree totally with you description of religion. For may years I have
explained it to others as follows.

Religion is the Opiate of the masses.

Any thing we could not explain, could not control, caused us pain or
allowed us to hurt others, was "God's" will.

Things no sane person would even contemplate, we have done!! It
just shows how strong an opiate religion is.

Sadman

[Yokel]

Scientifically, nothing would ever exist unless it were made by something (or someone) so on that basis SOMETHING or SOMEONE  (really the different between the two is irrelevant)  made us, made the  planet we live on, the universe we live in.......   I think religion - whether it be christianity, islamic, paganism, whatever - is simply a tool used by many to explain things and create certainty where there really is none.  For others it simply an excuse to be a nasty bastrad - but the myth is if there wasnt religion then all the meanness would stop - the central tenet of the Nazis wasn't religion although they did abuse it) and look at all the damage they did. 

Would the meanness stop without religion?  Of course it wouldn't.
Don't blame the religions for the terror and trouble - blame the PEOPLE.

[hermes2007]

I don't think that's entirely true Yokel. A number of good psychology studies have shown that though all human beings have a nasty streak, for most anyway that is suppressed unless society / religions legitimises it and says it is acceptable to shoot or tortue people. What strikes me when you hear interviews with ex-torturers, camp guards etc. is how ordinary they mostly are. Because they were encouraged by their superiors (or forced in some cases to be fair) they seem to have regarded torture as the day job and then went home to their families and behaved in a perfectly orfinary way. Some were just monsters of course. It always amazes me how few soldiers get prosecuted for shooting surrendering enemies (not all are caught of course) when they are encouraged to hate them and regard them as scum to be shot on sight. My Grandfather who fought all through the First WW said he didn't hate the Germans but killed his fair share when told to do so.
Don't worry Yokel my parents always said I would argue with god - which I would by the way, if there is one!

[Yokel]

But I still dont see what that has to do with God, in fact, if there is a God, at times I wonder if religion has any relationship to God at all.